The Significance of Data Analytics in Digital Transformation

Pavi Agrawal Transcript

Intro - 00: 00:01: Welcome to Beyond the Screen: An IONOS Podcast, where we share insights and tips to help you scale your business's online presence. Hosting genuine conversations with the best in the web and IT industry, and exploring how the IONOS brand can help professionals and customers with their hosting and cloud issues. I’m your host, Joe Nash.

Joe - 00: 00:22: Welcome to another episode of Beyond the Screen: An IONOS Podcast. Today we welcome a visionary in the world of technology and digital transformation, Pavi Agrawal. With a career spanning over two decades, Pavi's journey has seen him don the hats of a Co-founder, Chief Technology Officer and IT leader at several influential organizations. Currently steering the ship as the Vice President and Head of IT at Relativity, he champions enterprise-wide solutions that touch everything from enterprise architecture to business intelligence. But his journey has been diverse from establishing startups and guiding them to successful acquisitions by private equity to spearheading IT transformations in globally recognised brands like Tupperware and Mars. Pavi, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining me today.

Pavi - 00: 01:03: Thank you so much for having me, Joe.

Joe - 00: 01:05: It's always wonderful to read through these bios, but yours was especially exciting because my house is a big Tupperware house. And I have to admit, I did get a bit excited when I got to that end bit. I was like, “oh, that's new. We don't see that kind of name on this podcast often”. So that is awesome. It's great to have diverse experience, all sectors here on the show. So I guess I want to kick off digging into your background a bit, as we self-tend to do. With that journey we just underscored, from co-founding startups to leading IT transformations in global companies, how has your perspective on IT and technology's role in business evolved over the span of those two decades?

Pavi - 00: 01:43: Sure. First of all, thank you for having me here. So I'll tell you, I've been in IT for almost 25 years. And I started off as a developer, working in mainframes, ES/9000, they don't even exist, all cobalt stuff and RPG. And that time I was totally focused on programming. In fact, back in the days in AS400, I used to put in RPG, RPG ILE. So basically I wrote the bulkiest program, only thinking about technology, only thinking about, “okay, I have to write this program”, not thinking about the business perspective at all. Now, over the years, as I have graduated more and understood the business more, what I've realized is that IT is the enabler for business. And a lot of companies, in fact, I would say 95% plus companies right now, IT is a cost center. Okay, it is not a profit center yet, profit center yet. But things are changing now. Because what my perspective right now stands is that every company, whether it's a CPG company or a manufacturing company or a retail company or a software company or aeronautics company or trains, or every company is a technology company. We just don't know it yet. Because nothing will work if technology doesn't work. So IT plays a very, very important role now. And it's not just a business enabler, but in a lot of cases, it has a seat on the board and it can do things which nobody else in the organization can do. So that is a perspective change that I've had in the last 25 years, not thinking about business at all and thinking about only about business.

Joe - 00: 03:11: And I think that's a journey that I feel like many listeners to our show who have started off as a software engineer and slowly as they've gained experience, got closer to how the business functions will recognize that journey in themselves for sure. So you said something interesting there that, obviously every company is technology company, whether they realize it or not. And I think part of what you described there about technology being pivotal to their success is ultimately the recognition that like, “hey, we're a technology company because we have to have technology because how do you function in the world about technology versus how do we leverage technology for success for a competitive advantage?” So talking about the idea of digital transformation, digital success, what do you think it means for a business to truly succeed in digital today? If they're just starting out this journey of recognizing the role that digital plays for their business.

Pavi - 00: 03:59: Digital transformation is not something new. This term was coined more recently, digital transformation. But people were using mainframes even at that point. There was some level of transformation where things were manual. Somebody came up with the idea of mainframe. They started using those programs, starting putting their purchase orders through the screens instead of a manual physical paper. So that kind of digital transformation was happening. Nowadays, with the onset of cloud, things have taken a completely different direction. Earlier, we had to set up an application. We had to buy a server. The server procurement would take months, months, actually.

Joe - 00: 04:35: Got physical machines being put in actual places by people.

Pavi - 00: 04:40: Yeah, and then somebody would be hosting that machine into our own data center. And then our data center would grow to the size of like 30,000 servers running in the data center with physical security and digital security and everything. Things have changed now. Now, with the click of a button, we can have a virtual machine running in Azure, AWS, GCP, whatever. So that is a very important part of digital transformation. Then onset of SaaS subscriptions. We don't write softwares now. We subscribe to a software. I mean, there are companies, one of my last employers, very large CPG company, had thousands of subscriptions for different kinds of business use-cases. Now, good and bad thing, because I extort 50% of them when I was rationalizing the inventory. But still, the good thing is that you don't have to write the software. You just subscribe to the software. You may tweak it, but you just subscribe to it and use it. So that is another very key aspect of digital transformation. The third aspect I feel is the mindset. People need everything on their tips now. The information needed right now, whether it's the mobile phone or iPad or your computer, of course, anywhere in the world, you don't have to be in the US to work. I'm working from India for two weeks and I see no problems in working. Zero, because everything is on Zoom. So that is another aspect of digital. Any information available anywhere in the world without any boundaries. And of course, the security. So those are the key aspects of digital transformation. Ultimately, every process within a company should be touchless, converted in zeros and ones, basically digitally, transferred through wires, not through papers. That would be the ultimate goal of digital transformation. I think that's my take on this digital transformation right now.

Joe - 00: 06:19: That makes sense. You mentioned something that I want to go to, but it's just been topical. So recently on Twitter, on social media, or I guess X now to say it correctly, there's been a lot of discourse about SaaS subscriptions and particularly the developer sphere has been talking about basically like companies putting down big money on SaaS subscriptions and it actually turns out no one's used it and you can cancel it. Basically an approach to dealing with these services where you just cancel them every year and you see which ones people complain about before you reinstate them. So it's really interesting that you mentioned axing 50% of them. How do you approach, when you've got this proliferation of SaaS at a big company, how do you get to that 50%? And how do you shake out the ones that aren't doing anything?

Pavi - 00: 06:58: Yeah, so I'll tell you, I've done it in three companies now and have been hugely successful, saved millions of dollars for the company. In fact, one of the companies we saved around $12 million matter of months, seriously. So I have to go back 25 or 30 years back into my life, even 40 years, because I'm 50 now. So as I was growing up, went through certain tough times and I realized the importance of money very early on and I became very frugal. I would not spend money where it is not required. I would spend money very wisely. I would preserve, I would save. And that became in my DNA. So wherever I went, whether even if I'm writing the code, make sure that it's most optimal code. It's taking the most optimal resources. It's easy to maintain, easy to change and everything. So that has been my mantra since I was growing up. Now, when it came to SaaS, I saw that I joined one CPG company. That was my first experience looking at it in a grand scale. Company was spending around 100 million plus in SaaS subscriptions. For SaaS subscriptions optimization, there are a couple of things that you have to look at. One is what you have subscribed. Basically you have subscribed for 1000 users or you have subscribed for compute usage of X number of units, or you have subscribed for storage, whatever. So different subscription models, right? Then we have the contract. What is our contract size? How long is the contract? And then the usage, actual usage, what's happening in the system. And these three things you have to look at and find out opportunities. So what we did was we looked at low-hanging fruits first. So we looked at low-hanging fruits where we found those softwares which were not used at all, zero usage. So people just bought it because they had funding and we saved like a couple of million dollars right there.

Joe - 00: 08:44: Didn't find a way to put it into the workflow.

Pavi - 00: 08:45: And then there was a lot of budget decentralization that was happening in that company because it was a large company. China bought their own software, Germany bought their own software and so on. Then we consolidated those applications. Why do we need 12 instances of Concur? We don't need 12 instances of Concur.

Joe - 00: 08:59: I've definitely been at companies where that has happened, yeah, for sure.

Pavi - 00: 09:02: Exactly, right? Why do we need 40 different ways to manage master data? We don't need to. Why do we need 60 different applications for managing our invoices? We don't need to. Even though you're a global company, you don't need to. Maybe we need five different instances. So those are the opportunities that we took here very fast. Now the challenge comes is the contract is usually three to five years with these SaaS companies. The negotiation of the contract within that three years is a very big challenge. In certain cases, I was able to work out where we got credit and other things for future use, but not in all of the other cases. But overall, the same mantra, same formula, we implemented at Tupperware also and my current company also, because it makes sense. Why should we throw the money out when we don't have to, basically?

Joe - 00: 09:45: Yeah, absolutely. I feel especially with a lot of platforms that people are using at work now like Slack and Zoom and things with plug-in and with ecosystems where it's very easy to get into subscription for a little piece of functionality. You want polls in Slack, you want coffee chats in Zoom, and suddenly employees are just adding SaaS subscriptions left and right. The big things like Concur and Salesforce that the business depends on are part of it, but you also proliferate this long tail, small things, right? And fascinating.

Pavi - 00: 10:17: It's interesting you brought up Slack because most of the companies have Microsoft. They're a Microsoft shop. They all have teams subscription free.

Joe - 00: 10:25: Yeah, it just comes with any other Microsoft product, right?

Pavi - 00: 10:27: It comes free. Now, the premium is additional cost, but the basic thing is free. It's a used selling almost like a substantial money.

Joe - 00: 10:35: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess the same can be said of, you know... Every tech company in the world has Google Suite somewhere, right? Which has, you know, you can, you find probably a tool to fit pretty much everything you need to do in there somewhere. If you know, you dig for it, but.

Pavi - 00: 10:50: And actually I was working for, as an advisory consultant for one company, I'll not make them take the name, but they don't have Microsoft in their house. All Google. Gmail they use for official emails.

Joe - 00: 11:01: Yeah, I think that's very common. That's been the case a lot. I've been to.

Pavi - 00: 11:04: It's a pretty big company.

Joe - 00: 11:05: Yeah, well, thank you. I think that was a very timely detour, but to go back to digital transformation. So, yeah, we spoke about digital transformation, but you shared those three points that you think are key to digital transformation. So I want to talk about your approach to digital transformation, which is like, how do you come to digital transformation at a company in a way that's innovative and practical for the organization and in particular, looking at the issue of, say you've got a company that's really step one of digital transformation. How do you prioritize which technologies to integrate first into the business? And how do you tackle that mountain?

Pavi - 00: 11:41: So see, to have proper digital transmission in an organization, especially those companies which are very stable and like legacy companies, right? 100 year old company or 50 year old company, nobody will listen to you if you talk about digital transformation, to be very frank. They don't have time. So first thing that you need to do is you listen, listen to their pain points. You need to partner up. And before you start talking about digital transformation, that's a leadership, you need to have that strong partnership with them. So my mantra has been be useful, gain the trust, partner up, so it's all based off listening. So that's a basic thing. Once you have that strong partnership enabled, you need to look at certain things, okay? We need to look at our existing landscape to look at what technology debt they have. So number one, reduce technology debt as part of this digital transformation, because none of the digital transformation will succeed if you have a lot of legacy debt. One of my previous companies, they were around 6,500 applications, 4,800 websites. I'm not making up these numbers. These are real numbers. From the transmission perspective, how can we build on something where the foundationally you have so much of technical debt? So as a result, we basically Xed out around 3,800 applications.

Joe - 00: 12:55: That still leaves like a stunning amount of applications. It's a huge start, yeah, absolutely.

Pavi - 00: 12:59: More than 50%. And imagine what you can do to the Opex. Opex for those companies, for that CIO, it will reduce substantially, not just from resource perspective, but even the compute perspective, the maintenance perspective, change and so on. That's number one. Number two is risk mitigation. And I'm not even talking about digital transformation right now because that is, that will happen. But once we have to take care of these things also. So reducing technology there, risk mitigation is the second one. You cannot imagine how many companies they are running vulnerable with security. And none of this digital transformation will succeed if you have thousands of CVEs present in your digital areas already or on-prem softwares. So security vulnerabilities, end of life of applications and hardware and software they have, operating system they have, license and compliance issues. Those things need to be taken care of. And everything is going in parallel actually. Now let's talk about digital transformation. Digital transformation also you have to consider from the consumer-facing point of view, as well as core, the core of the business point of view. Core tech, when I talk about is those softwares like ERPs, workdays or a procurement solution or a supply chain solution. Core tech transformation.

Joe - 00: 14:09: Almost all the operational capability, right? The things that keep the business running.

Pavi - 00: 14:13: I mean, things like SAP and other integrated solutions, so that part. And then we talk about the UX also. So UX should be based off the design thinking, where we conduct design thinking sessions with the end users. Everything should be mobile first. It should be mobile ready, given everything. And of course, data and analytics. I mean, leveraging big data and going cloud first approach with everything cloud. Nothing should be on-prem unless it is really required. When certain things like in-office displays, there are certain things that you might need a server or two. In-house, that's a different thing. Or for manufacturing, you might need on-prem servers. But other than, everything should be on cloud. Then data and analytics, leveraging big data, leveraging cloud analytics, leveraging generative AI nowadays. All those things. This complete spectrum of things is what I call digital transformation. Now, there is one more aspect of transformation, which is extremely important, is human. So we talked about that we have three pillars mainly, right? The people, process, and technology. I also talk about enablement. Because if you don't enable the people, our digital transformation will fail. Now, what does enablement mean? Enablement means how we do the demand, how we manage the supply chain of the software or the data, how we produce the software, how we manage the complete DevOps, or rather, I would say DevSecOps. In fact, I have added one more word of requirements to this. Because without a requirement, nothing works. So ReqDevSecOps. So there are multiple aspects to it. So basically, a giant ReqDevSecOps process is what I believe in. And that enablement has to happen. And that enablement is very critical, because I have seen companies which will have brilliant idea, but they cannot execute well. And they end up spending millions of dollars to create that big idea. There is no ROI, because you already spend so much, because of your broken processes. So people process technology, and enablement is all should be part of digital transformation.

Joe - 00: 16:14: That makes a lot of sense. I like the emphasis on people and partnering with people in your organization to find the problems. First of all, the first thing that struck me as you were talking about that was, it's very reminiscent of what we have heard on this show from experienced product managers who are talking about managing the product to making sure it's addressing user needs and it very much is similar if you're thinking of the organization as a whole as a product and its users are the employees, a very similar approach, which is very interesting. But then also, it's great to hear those three pillars because I feel like. At least in, you know, I've never worked with digital transformation, but I've been adjacent to a lot of it happening. My perception has often been that digital transformation is something that. Happens to a business rather than cooperatively done within the business. So, you know, often someone has decided, hey, let's bring in some consultants who are going to do a digital transformation, right? And so hearing your envision of those three pillars and it being so people-centered, I think is really important and yeah, a very interesting approach.

Pavi - 00: 17:09: The reason we have to introduce people and enablement part is, well, what's our ultimate goal of digital transformation? Our ultimate goal of digital transformation is to reduce time to market for the business period. Business can go faster, whether it's launching of new products, whether it is for delivering of a product to a customer or anything. If you don't consider the people and the enablement part, then we will not reduce the human errors. We'll take more time to produce the product that the business wants to use to increase the cost of ownership of anything that we do. Then it will also increase if you don't take care of people and enablement part, it will also increase the severity and frequency of those incidents which business disruption will happen and business will not be able to move faster. So that digital transformation will not work. So all of these vertical pillars and the bottom horizontal of enablement is extremely critical. A lot of people miss their part where they don't enable the processes around it, and then people say, “oh, man, my digital transformation is not working. I implemented this workday, but it's not working because man, you have not enabled the processes around it”.

Joe - 00: 18:17: Fascinating. Then that I think leads me very nice into another question here, which is you mentioned a couple of, I guess like newer technologies that you know, you mentioned DevSecOps, which is a somewhat new rebranding of the term. I like your spin alert with added requirements as well, but also generative AI, a very hit thing at the moment. When you think about introducing these new technologies and strategies into an established business or legacy business, this sounds a bit adversarial, but how do you overcome internal reluctance or pushback or skepticism? How do you use that enablement picture to convince people that this is a positive change?

Pavi - 00: 18:53: I'll tell you two things that I truly believe and I use it now and then. I have gone through seven transformations and it really works. So first thing is always think big, execute small and iterate. So take smaller chunks, breed success, gain the trust and become influential. If you become influential, create another iteration. And this is like human psychology actually, because with chain management, you have to play with human psychology. So I have a big thing in my mind that I want to digitize everything. I want to cut down to 3000 applications, but then I have to execute small and I have to iterate through it, repeat the formula. So if we do that, then we are slowly gaining the trust in a new organization when a person goes, instead of getting in and saying, “oh, we are going to change the world”. It's not going to happen. People will resist like anything. Because ultimately, what's your goal is to implement those incremental changes. So small, small chunks, break it down. You take one process, modify it, create a success. Success breeds success. So think big, execute small, iterate, because success breeds success. Your first iteration, if it fails, doesn't matter. It's a small impact. But if it is successful, then you gain the trust of the business.

Joe - 00: 20:03: It's very similar to what's the famous, like under-promise over-deliver, kind of a similar vibe.

Pavi - 00: 20:08: I mean, you know what? Monolithic transformations is not going to happen. Those big bang approach things are gone. Those are gone things. I mean, my current role, I have implemented 27 different changes in the organization. Just to improve our DevOps and Agile and how we do things, everything. Because our digital transformation journey requires all those things to be done. But we have to do it iteratively. Because every iteration we do has to be a success.

Joe - 00: 20:36: Okay, so the flip that over, so that's talking about, you've got a new thing you want to implement to a business, you're trying to convince people. For you, especially with your experience having co-founded startups, how do you assess the potential of new technologies to be disruptive in the market? How do you convince yourself that this is something that you want to bring, either to the company or to the market in the case of your startups?

Pavi - 00: 20:57: I don't go emotional with technology. The moment I have realized that technology is there to either improve the customer experience or either improve the employee experience, either it's digitizing the processes or either it is helping us achieve the operational excellence, one thing to the other. So any technology that comes in, I always think about which part it is going to help me or help the business, whether it is going to make me money or save me money, because any dollar saved is also equal to almost like if I consider EBITDA 20%, every dollar I save is equal to $5 in revenue, because $5, 20% of it is EBITDA is $1. So if I'm saving $1 with a technology introduction, then I'm actually generating $5 revenue for the company. And that's how the mindset has to change to make IT the profit center, because it's not there yet. So what I'm saying is, so when we look at the new technology, whether it is generative AI or AI or data analytics or any other SaaS subscription that we're talking about or automation of, we have to think about from that perspective, customer experience, employee experience, digitization of the processes, either it is helping us operational excellence, achieving operational excellence, whatever you want to do, or optimizing the cost, or helping us with a new business model. So one of the things has to be there. If it is not there, I'm not interested in the technology, or it is eliminating the risk for the business, because there might be certain things where it may not fit into any other bill, but it has to be done because of it's a risk.

Joe - 00: 22:24: I'm still sitting with what you were speaking about in terms of the revenue-spend relationship, and it comes around that direction. Exactly what you said at the beginning about flipping being a cost center and being a revenue generator, where we don't fall back in that direction. Always fall back in terms of, hey, this thing I do now will make this much money, but not how much revenue has been generated to enable the spend I'm doing now is really interesting.

Pavi - 00: 22:48: Imagine this, a company to make $10 million in profit or EBITDA margins, at a 20% EBITDA margin, you have to generate $50 million in revenue. But if you save $10 million in certain costs, you're basically adding to the bottom line. It's a big number.

Joe- 00: 23:06: So earlier on, we were talking about, you talked about the importance of data analytics and taking advantage of the new forms of data analytics we have available to us now. With that in mind, with the importance of data decision-making improving, with data driven decisions being very key in all kinds of businesses, how would you recommend that legacy businesses reframe their data strategies to leverage these new technologies?

Pavi - 00: 23:29: See, from the data analytics perspective, we have to consider all sorts of data within an organization. I mean, legacy technologies, both structured and unstructured and semi-structured data. Because the amount of information that is present in the structured data in legacy applications is only a fraction of it. But unstructured data is in documents, in PDFs, that is substantial information, which is not even tabbed.

Joe- 00: 23:56: The amount of information logged in PDFs gives me nightmares, honestly.

Pavi - 00: 23:59: And I think organizations should consider a holistic approach when they talk about data. Structured, unstructured, semi-structured, even audio. Small messages, text messages and slacks and themes.

Joe - 00: 24:14: The voice messages that people send, like the quick voice messages they fire over.

Pavi - 00: 24:18: In certain cases, yes, short messages. So short messages is a big deal because the amount of messaging that is happening through short messaging is much higher, much more than emails, for instance. So an organization has to consider when they talk about data analytics from multiple different aspects, considering all the different elements, the structured data, the unstructured data, and the semi-structured data, emails and other things. Now, depending upon the different use case, you can have the analytics sitting on top of it. You can use certain companies, they use modern softwares like Snowflake and AWS and Microsoft and so many other things, Azure Data Lake. Again, that could be case-by-case basis. But from a strategy point of view, all the different types of data should be considered. So that's probably my take on this on a high level right now.

Joe - 00: 25:05: That makes sense. The various unstructured media available for employee communication now is a really interesting one from so many angles that you mentioned traditionally, I guess, email has been the strata of business communications. But then when you start to get into, even just topics like how much do we as the business understand what decisions are being made with what technology, like from a compliance perspective you can tell what's happened in emails, you can see what data has been exchanged in your company's emails, but like, how do you deal with an audio message sent over Slack, like completely inaccessible in so many ways. Yeah, it's very interesting.

Pavi - 00: 25:39: Actually, my company is working on it. So we are actually working on the same use case where we can understand what's in the audio or even the video and create intelligence out of it. So, and all our unstructured information can be using the artificial intelligence. We can generate intelligence out of it based on certain rules.

Joe - 00: 25:59: Nice to bring your company into it right near the end. We're coming up in time here. Okay. I've got a couple more questions I want to try and squeeze in, be mindful of your time. So, we've spoken about emerging technologies a couple of times here. What emerging technologies do you foresee having the most substantial impact on the online business operations in the next five years? Obviously, I can imagine where this is going to go given the current moment and AI and stuff, but yeah, that's the question as is.

Pavi - 00: 26:22: I think hands down, it would be generative AI. It's going to be a game changer for a lot of business processes, a lot of industries, how we do things. Of course, it will have a certain impact on the employment also because you don't need to hire. And if I just consider IT perspective, right? I mean, not even considering outside. We may not need to hire 20 developers if we can generate the code at the first pass, in a matter of minutes. So that's only in transition. So generative AI, hands down, it will be the number one thing that is the game changer and it is just the beginning.

Joe - 00: 26:56: I had a moment this morning, so speaking about PDFs and unstructured data, I've been trying to deal with a really difficult PDF data extraction problem. And I've also been a bit of an outspoken generative AI skeptic, I will say that. But this morning I was like, I've fed up a bang in my head against this PDF problem. I'm just going to give the PDFs to a generative AI and ask it to get what I want out of it and see what happens. And it did it. And I was just like, I've really been, this is what I get for being a non-believer. I've just been absolutely had like hours of work that I've spent on this just instantly gone. I'm just like, “okay, fine”.

Pavi - 00: 27:30: I mean, there are so many case studies. My company deals with unstructured data a lot. I mean, we are in that legal industry space where the legal cases are millions of documents. We have petabytes of stores of data, all unstructured information, but how we create intelligence and it saves the legal lawyers and everything time, I mean, it is substantial.

Joe - 00: 27:51: All right, so final question here to squeeze the last one in. You know, we've spoken about all different industries you've covered, the length of your career, the different roles you've had from developer to digital transformations to founder and CTO. As you look back on all of that, what is one piece of advice that you would give to folks entering the technology industry today?

Pavi - 00: 28:11: So one piece of advice I would give is always broaden your horizon. Don't stay in your comfort zone. If you are comfortable, then punch out of the comfort zone, look beyond. I mean, if you are developing Java programs, understand how the interfaces work. Understand how the data works. Understand how the APIs work. If you are doing the database programming, understand the reverse side of it. What happens in the application level? If you understand the application and data, look at what's happening in security. If you understand security also, understand. I mean, you have to broaden your horizon. Because what happens is people get into their cocoon, just stay in that cocoon because of their comfort zone, which is okay. A lot of people, it is good for them. But people who want to grow both in their career, as well as professionally, as well as from the knowledge point of view, you have to understand what is the engagement tier, what is the digital services tier, what is the mass data integration tier, what is the enterprise services tier, and everything around that. So staying in your comfort zone is only going to help you to be in your cocoon, which is okay for some people. But for most, you need to expand. So learn, upskill, wherever you get an opportunity. Content is free available. That would be my number one advice.

Joe - 00: 29:27: I love that advice a lot. I think it's a, you know, I say it's very easy to, you know, hone in a single track and to spend your time in there. But the example you gave of being a Java application developer and understanding more about, you know, what happens at either end and at the peripheries of your application, even if you do want to stay on that single, you know, if you want to be just the world's best Java developer, it will really help you do that. So I think that's, that's great advice. Well, Pavi, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been fantastic. And yeah, thank you for joining us on the show.

Pavi - 00: 29:53: Thank you, Joe, and it was wonderful talking to you. And thank you for all the questions.

Joe - 00: 29:58: Beyond the Screen: An IONOS Podcast. To find out more about IONOS and how we're the go-to-source for cutting-edge solutions and web development, visit ionos.com and then make sure to search for IONOS in Apple podcasts, Spotify and Google podcasts, or anywhere else podcasts are found. Don't forget to click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. On behalf of the team here at IONOS, thanks for listening.