User-Centered Design and the Importance of Understanding Target Users

Cameron Miller Automated Transcript

00:00:01: Joe: welcome to Beyond the Screen: An IONOS Podcast, where we share insights and tips to help you scale your business online presence. Hosting genuine conversations with the best in the Web and IT industry, and exploring how the Iona brand can help professionals and customers with their hosting and cloud issues. I'm your host, Joe Nash. Welcome to another episode of Beyond the Screen and Iona Podcast. Today we are joined by someone whose expertise cuts across multiple domains, from UX design to cutting edge technologies like augmented reality and automated drone flight planning. Please welcome camera Miller, a UX leader and innovator who currently serves as the lead visual designer for UX operations at Avid, a company committed to powering creators in the media and entertainment industries. With the Masters degree in human future interaction and a career spanning diverse sectors, Cameron brings a blend of psychological insight, technical prowess and design thinking to the table. Whether you're a tech professional, a business leader or just a curious mind, you will find a wealth of actual insights in today's conversation. Cameron, welcome to the show.

00:01:04: Cameron: Thank you so much, Joe. I'm so happy to be here.

00:01:06: Joe: Yeah, it's great to have you. I'm very excited to kick off today's conversation, as is ever the case. When we do these intros cover a whole bunch of different things that our wonderful guests do. And I want to start by diving straight into that because we had some really interesting technologies that right off the top So, you know, with your background of working on things like virtual worlds for enterprises augmented reality medical trauma training systems, which, like, could be a show in of itself, I think Can we talk a little bit about your journey and how you got into all of these things and how you design Freds through all of that?

00:01:37: Cameron: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I guess I can start at the beginning. I got my undergraduate degree in psychology, and after that, after I graduated, I was not exactly sure where to go next, and nobody really spoke a breath of user experience design throughout my university education, and it took about nine or 10 months for me to kind of have this light fall where I started thinking about this field of psychology. I learned about it's called human factor psychology, So I started looking into that and that ultimately led me to human factors, engineering. And then, of course, this thing. This was like 2012, 2013 user experience design, I said, What the heck is that? And the more I read about it, the more I realised, Oh my goodness, that's exactly what I feel I should be doing. And from there on, I did apply to a graduate programme at DePaul University for human computer interaction. And that was about a 2 2.5 year journey there. And from that point, I was just kind of off to the races, working as a usability intern. Initially, I started that about 2013 for a process automation company, and eventually, throughout that time, I became keenly aware of the impact of spacial technology and sort of emerging field of aged reality, mixed reality, virtual reality, all of these things that have been around for a while, But they were really just starting to catch a big buzz at the time. So at that point I started connecting with some folks on LinkedIn about the topic, and I met some like minded technologists who were also keenly aware of the impact and the promise of this technology and what happened was is we started essentially moonlighting together as an agency. So we all had our day jobs, and we really wanted to spread our wings in this other field. This field of emerging technology we were taking on clients. We were working nights and weekends really kind of burning the midnight oil to try to figure out and solve for some of these use cases that could be solved for or could leverage spatial technology. And then from that point, because I was being more vocal online about it and trying to kind of drum up a little more of a presence in that field, I ended up taking a job in Florida, working for a government contractor who only really specialised in emerging technology for the government. And that's how I slipped into that field as a user experience practitioner working with augmented reality trauma training.

00:04:06: Joe: Wow, OK, we have, like a common thing here. Whenever we have any UX folks on the show, where at some point they spin out and make an agency, there's definitely like a is definitely part of the UX path. I think I'm excited to learn. That's really exciting. That's awesome. So we covered UX a bit before in the show, but I think there's so many unique aspects to the augmented reality and the particular applications you work on that I'm really looking forward to digging into before we get on to that, though as a designer in this field and, you know, working on these emerging technologies, you are, you know, probably the first port of call for a lot of users in exploring these things, right, like the experiences that you're creating are going to be the first experiences that a lot of users see in these fields. How do you go about thinking about crafting those experiences and, like, how do you apply what you've learned for your psychology degrees and your experience to your day?

00:04:52: Cameron: Sure, Yeah, absolutely so kind of going about rafting these things, I just want to say, like off the bat. I think that the optimal user experiences or whether they're impactful or memorable or positive user experiences. Those occur when somebody is interacting with a product or a service that's helping them achieve a goal. Either that's in an efficient way, an effective way, an intuitive way and often even a pleasurable way. So in order to do that in order to create after this technology that would afford those experiences, you absolutely need to be practising user centred design. So that's kind of like the crux of everything that I do is hanging on this practise of user centred design and throughout my experience, working in these various industries and fields, that's been a common theme. I mean, that's what I do is user centred design. And in order to practise user centred design, you need to be watching and listening to the targeted users of your product. You need to be designing everything in between, but you need to keep them in the loop the whole time throughout your design process, and I have some other thoughts on it. But that is really where that comes from, and and practising in these different fields has allowed me to exercise the tools in that toolbox and a variety of contexts. So, you know, we could be, for instance, performing un moderated usability. Testing for a Web application is much more easy to do than trying to get user feedback with somebody using a Microsoft Hollow lens. There's very two different context for practising UX research, but trying to do either of them, I think, has at least given me the appreciation for those different tactics you need to take in order to collect that feedback and further the design.

00:06:38: Joe: I want to come back to that in a moment because there's something there that I think is really interesting about changing gear between those two modes of Web and these applications you're working on. But before that, for folks who are new to the concept of user centric design, let's dig into that a little bit. So what do you think are the core elements that make up user centric design? What is different about that approach than other approaches to UX?

00:06:57: Cameron: I think the core of UX design in general as a practise, is user Centricity. Because UX does spawn, it has its earliest roots and human factors engineering human computer interaction. That's where UX evolves from. And if there is an idea that user Centricity has ever sort of been a peripheral consideration of UX design, I'd say that is probably an incorrect perception, but it could very well be an artefact of this whole sort of like UXU. I movement of this nomenclature that has become so prevalent throughout the industry that I

00:07:31: Joe: did the slash in the middle and treating it as one thing, right?

00:07:34: Cameron: Yeah, that's right. So people are equating user interface design with user experience design, and really one is a sub item of the other. They're both important. So core art. The facts of a really great design, in my opinion, are the insights and bits of information that you've collected from your target users from people that are actually going to use that system that you then let that inform the design moving forward. I think those are the core artefacts, like the actual knowledge, how people think and feel and interact with the systems that you're designing for, because without that you might have a beautiful looking user interface. But, I mean, how much are we guessing as to how it's solving the problem? How people are feeling about it is this actually working? Is this is this letting the person do the job they need to do when they're interacting with their software so that you can tell you can tell when people have done their research and you're working with the system and you're saying, Oh my gosh, I'm getting so much value out of this, it's like they know exactly what I need to do. That's because they do. They've done their research and that shows and really great product design.

00:08:38: Joe: Yeah, Interesting. OK, so to then go back to you what you were talking about before when you were getting into us and the difference between craft that websites versus the sort of applications you work on. I suppose another challenge in that space is also one of scale. Right? So you're talking about getting these artefacts from the users and, you know, when you're dealing with like, Consumer Facing Website, you've got as many pieces of data as you know what to do with about how people are engaging with that experience. Right? But then you spoke about hollow lens where you've probably got a handful of end users. If you're lucky, does that change the way that you engage with, like user Centricity

00:09:10: Cameron: it? Absolutely. That's more of a challenge for sure. The more data you have access to, the better off you are. And if you are having an issue of not having the bandwidth to process the amount of data that's pouring into your organisation, whether it's quantitative or qualitative. It's a good problem, right? That's a fantastic, fantastic problem to have now, or you're working to solve a problem. That is a very niche thing, a very niche market with some very sort of exotic technology. That's when we might be running out of user data. Or we might be trying to infer things or you start guessing as a UX practitioner the minute that you were like guessing and that's OK to guess at some point when you're trying to design a thing and you have a hypothesis, you're trying to go based off of your understanding of best practises and standards. But we need to kind of like check ourselves as designers when we cross that bridge into you know, that open water of All right. I think this might be the right way to do a thing, but we will know that we need to validate it. We need to eventually put whatever we're designing in front of people that are actually going to use this thing, and in certain cases. That is definitely more difficult. And while I was working with the team that was designing the technology for the military, we actually had to travel to military bases to then put these devices our heads of the users and get their feedback. It's we couldn't even do it remotely. We couldn't really even invite them into our office because of the use case so narrow that you have

00:10:43: Joe: to have government clearances and all kind of things as well, right?

00:10:46: Cameron: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely. So that presented another challenge of just trying to get to the site, getting clearance to get to the site, to run these tests. And I mean, it was very interesting, but we have to do it. You need to go through the validation and go through the effort to actually get that feedback, and there's a tonne of feedback you can get. It's very interesting working with the technology that is very personal and intimate, like a headset, and you put it on their head. You have to make sure it fits right. You need to make sure the inter people are distance or all of those things are feeling good just to get them the use of being the

00:11:18: Joe: Sony or dimensions to the user experience, right? That's right.

00:11:21: Cameron: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Jill.

00:11:23: Joe: Interesting. OK, cool. So I guess to go back to a slightly higher level. So this idea that customer and user attention spans are increasingly shortening that everyone want to spend less and less time engaging with it. And you need to work harder and harder to keep that engagement up. Can you share a little bit about your thoughts on how a well crafted user experience moves beyond just improving the functionality to something that will engage and retain users?

00:11:48: Cameron: Definitely So well crafted user centred products will facilitate valuable experiences for the people that are interacting with them. Right? So what I mean by this is that people will derive value from interacting with the product your product isn't going to give value. Value is something that the US are derived from your product, and it's a key component of any product that's going to genuinely, like captivate users and have them coming back for more. If you get value from something, you're going to use it time and again. So while I was studying very early on in my career, I was presented with this graphic. It's called the UX honeycomb User Experience Honeycomb. Very popular graphic in the field. It was created by Peter Mobi, who's been working in user experience, design and information architecture since the nineties. And essentially, what this graphic illustrates is that value, which is at the core of the honey cone, is reliant on six other facets. And according to this, a system that delivers value to its end users is going to be number one useful. It's going to provide some sort of utility to the person. It's going to be desirable. People will want to use it. The system and the information within it will be accessible to the users. If it's not accessible, you can't get value from it. The information needs to be credible. People need to trust the system that is giving them the right information and create them. Be difficult, right? Right. Yeah. So we need to trust the system in order for you to derive value from it. The information needs to be findable as well. If you can't find it, you can't get value from it. And then lastly, but very importantly, it needs to be usable. It needs to be easy to use, so being useful is different than being usable, but it needs to be both. So in order to nail down all of these things that generate value, you got to practise UX research. You have to let your futures inform those things so that you make the right decisions on how to approach each of those aspects. And I see that this sort of philosophy of value and the things that drive value is definitely at the bedrock of my practise. And it is something that I think is crucial to creating products that will keep people coming back for more because they're getting value. And at the end of the day, we want to create products that help people. So that's where I'm at with that one.

00:14:08: Joe: Yeah, Yeah, that makes total sense. Well, hopefully take a link to that diagram. It's very easy to find Peter Morville user experience, how to go. Why build it up while you were chatting about it? Super useful diagram that So I guess, to get into your particular experience, you worked across all these different you know, wild emerged technologies or mental reality drones, et cetera. From that selection or things even still to come up, what Emerge Technologies do you see is presenting unique challenges for creating impact for user experiences or on the flip sides that present really interesting opportunities for new experiences?

00:14:39: Cameron: Oh, that's a great question, Joe. So I'd say some of the more challenging for technology that is on the horizon has got a bunch of buzz. I mean, of course, it is going to be the augmented reality stuff. I mean, virtual reality is further down the pike, for sure, and it has really strong use cases for gaming for social experiences. But of course, you know, everybody has a VR headset, and certainly not everybody has glasses. Let you perceive holograms in your space and because those don't really quite exist yet, and in working with the technology, I always had some level of frustration because it's so easy to design these beautiful concepts of a world in which we are able to perceive spatial digital information that help us do a thing. And you know, we have this calendar on the wall, and that's not actually there, and we have this other thing over here that's going to, you know, help us do some other task and they're all just kind of beautiful floating holograms that are embedded in our space. But the technology has been improving, for sure, but it's certainly not to the point where we've got the glasses and it's socially acceptable to wear them.

00:15:43: Joe: It's been improving for decades, right? Like it's always still just over the hill. But we're not quite that

00:15:48: Cameron: absolutely. And I think other than just having social acceptance of this level of technology, like as if it's an iPhone or a smartphone or something that we have in our pocket. I mean, we need to be mindful of the psychophysiological ramifications of wearing this technology of beaming, you know, light into your eyes in different context. I mean, there might be certain contexts where this stuff is just distracting. We need to be very careful and very responsible about how we approach designing content in that very intimate way, because now you are overlaying information on a person's perception of the world around them, and I think with that cliche of that type of power, comes really, really great responsibility from a design perspective and implementation perspective. I think the technology that's really making excellent waves right now and maybe even a little bit of spooky is artificial intelligence. It's been around for decades, but just over the last few years, right? And it's just incredible to watch. But I'm very curious to see how it accelerates human performance over the coming years. It already is doing so. I think I'm really excited about a I. I think a lot of people are also very excited about it, but also very cautious about it. And I do see I think there's a similar sentiment with augmented reality, although that seems perhaps way further out than a IA. I is here, you know, and it's wild.

00:17:13: Joe: It's interesting that you mentioned the social acceptance. I think it's a really poignant point because, like thinking back to you know, I think the closest we've come to augmented reality in the large at least as far as I remember it is probably Google Glass, right? And that kind of ended in, I don't know, ridicule is the right word, but there was definitely a large social backlash against last users, right to what extent do you think that social acceptance is aided by the UX the applications that are on these devices because a large part of that was suddenly people were wearing cameras on their faces, which now, because of the ubiquity of smartphones, that particular issue, I feel like, would be less controversial. But as you say, there's also just like, you know, are people driving with these things? Are they reading while texting? Are they looking at me or are they looking at something on the screen? There's like a lot that goes into it,

00:17:58: Cameron: Absolutely. I think at the end of the day, in order for someone to put something on their face that alters their perception of the world or augments their perception of the world in order for them to keep doing that, and this is going to come back to an earlier question, it needs to be providing value. It can't just be a novelty. It can't just be this cool thing. It actually has to help them solve a problem or achieve a task in a way that they need it now to do this thing. I mean, look at the iPhone. I mean, it's we can hardly imagine not having one because of how much value people are deriving from it. And value is a very blanket kind of statement. People are going to derive value in different ways, based off of their context of use and what they need to be doing. And of course, there are always going to be these other contextual sensitivities or considerations with any new technology. I mean, tonnes of people are still on their phones driving, and that's very unsafe. They're completely distracted, but we try to design for that. I mean, even with the iPhone, right, they have a sort of driving mode. You can turn it on, and it will sort of sense when you are driving and kind of limit your connectivity or limit your interaction with the devices.

00:19:08: Joe: Give you warning if it detects your change mode and that kind of thing, right? Yeah, so

00:19:12: Cameron: you can try to design for those things, and that's a really fantastic effort to do so. But you're always going to, I think, have people that are using your technology out of its intent and context, and that's where I mean, you can't really control that, but you can try to curb it a little

00:19:28: Joe: bit. Yeah, sure. And also, you know, I think the thing I always find fascinating about that is like, you know, there are users who use it outside of your parameters accidentally on the right way, but, you know, like not necessarily intentionally. But then there are always users who like the reason they're doing it is to use it in ways you don't expect, which is always fun. I get particular joy from people using technology with inventive ways on to I guess this is a kind of a related topic in terms of considerations for the real world. You know, right now we're seeing what I think is a really wonderful shift in digital accessibility from being something that's like, Oh, we've completed it from one point. Oh, let's go tax and accessibility on to being, you know, a core part of the process. And, you know, an absolute must have been a lot of applications. You know, any new technology, particularly technology, talking about where you know, augmented reality very much a visual medium in a lot of ways. In the current ways, we're exploring it, you know? Obviously there are things like audio escapes and that kind of thing, but very much a visual medium. What is the process for building experiences on these kind of merry technologies with accessibility in mind? Oh

00:20:24: Cameron: goodness, yes. So in the 3D, I remember conducting an accessibility review for a virtual world platform sort of platform. We were going off of a set of heuristics that were defined for gaming accessibility that have been created to ensure or evaluate video games on their accessibility. Because that was the closest analogue we really had something to go off of. And I think when we're talking about at least spatial technology as an emerging technology here, understanding the modalities of perception is extremely important. I mean, if we think about spatial audio, not just the visual aspect, augmented or virtual reality, but the spatial audio is at least as important as the visual. I mean, it's what really sells your presence in that space. So I'm really excited to, you know, see how people explore spatial ad audio for folks who are visually impaired, who may not be able to, you know, leverage that visual channel of either VR or a R. We can certainly do a tonne with the audio portion as well. So I think just really understanding which modalities of interaction are unlocked or furthered with this new technology and just capitalising on that, just exploring that from the start because people with different abilities are going to bring different perspectives. And often there's a crossover. Some sort of accelerator for someone who may have a visual impairment could absolutely be an accelerator for someone who you know, has their full vision. And it benefits both audiences for sure. But you know, we absolutely should be approaching design in an inclusive way and research in an inclusive way for sure. If your whole product strategy is informed by, say, cited users, well, then you're going to have that bias carried throughout your product development process. So really kind of understanding where you can source your research participants to include a diverse set of perspectives at the ground level. That's where we need to be in order to carry accessibility throughout and not have it be some sort of afterthought with the emerging technology

00:22:40: Joe: that point you made about it benefiting users of all kinds. I think it is a really great one It's particularly interesting, you know, you said that you use video games on the closest comparison. That benefit to all parties does kind of remind me of a video game phenomenon that we saw around accessibility and difficulty, which was, you know, some accessibility tools that started to make it into games for all kind of things, you know, like reaction time and U I legibility and that kind of thing. And whilst also improving accessibility, it also made some games that were traditionally too challenging for, you know, people who didn't live and breathe video games able to play them. And, yeah, it's like a huge competitive edge. I think it's a really fascinating point that has a very direct comparison to the search you're using. A common thread here has been user research and being able to look at what users are doing to inform the practise and the design of these experiences. Obviously, right now, for many reasons and few of them UX related, I think we are seeing uh, somewhat of a scepticism to data collection. As you know, it's been dubbed the new Oil. Real Time analytics are controversial in many applications but are invaluable tools for UX designers. How does that real time data? How do those user feedback loops? Why is that such a useful tool for you? How do you integrate that into your practise?

00:23:50: Cameron: Yeah, that's a good question, Joe. So Real-time behavioural analytics are only as helpful to the extent by which you've designed your product to be sensitive to that level of analytics. If that makes sense, because engagement can be quantified a variety of ways, right and those often are unique metrics dependent on product, so engagement for you know, an E-commerce website that's going to look differently compared to engagement for, say, I don't know, a drone flight planning application. You're going to have different cooks for different things that mean, I guess, ultimately engagement. But it's in a different way. It's completely dependent on the behaviour and the job or the goal that your product is trying to help the user complete. So any time I'm working in an environment that has access to an analytics platform, I'm like, Oh, thank goodness, this is definitely helpful, for sure, but it is sort of like one half of the research coin. I mean, that allows you to sort of understand how your product is doing, depending on how well you have your metrics set up. So you need to have those key metrics identified for sure, so engagement can be measured in a certain way. Convergence can be measured in a certain way. Both are unique to what that means for your product. What I would recommend to any organisation is, please don't underestimate the power of qualitative data. Gather qualitative data wherever you can, gather it as much as possible and then figure out a way to process that information and let those insights directly inject into your product development process. Because that qualitative information, that's what actually gives you the context of how people are behaving and engaging and what they think and feel about how it's going is when they tell you. So. Of course, you know your qualitative data can be observational. You can run usability tests. You can gather even from these Behavioural analytics platforms like Hot Jar or Microsoft Clarity, where you might be able to actually watch how people are interacting with your Web property. We can gather some behavioural qualitative data there. You can also gather attitudinal qualitative data from surveys from interviews. I mean, that is just such rich information that ought to be kind of coveted. I think from any organisation who says that they're user centre or they have a user centric approach or they want to value you. You need to take that qualitative data and that content start there when you want to solve a problem. But you need to have the systems in place to then gather and process these mass qualities of data. Yeah, I

00:26:25: Joe: think that's some great advice. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, my follow up question was going to be with, you know, people's perception of data collection in mind. How do you balance for that? And I think you've answered that at that point, you know, thinking about why you're actually gathering the data and what it's telling you and what else you might need to actually determine what that data is telling you in terms of the qualitative research, I think is the perfect answer to that question. We also had a fun example of real time data collection from the application we're using to record the podcast there. At one point you gesture that it obviously detected that as a thumbs up and gave me a thumbs up emoji on your screen, which is a feature I've never seen before. But there you go. Real time data collection in afforded in U.

00:26:59: Cameron: X. That's right. Oh, my goodness, that's funny.

00:27:03: Joe: So, you know, we're talking about these tools that you, as designers, have access to to shape user behaviour. We've been talking about the importance of engagement and creating engaging experiences. I guess another piece of discourse we're hearing about this world is like, you know, the ethical considerations of engagement, Right? You know, we're creating these experiences that are engaging slash could be termed addictive and where that's appropriate, what's appropriate to do it? And can you talk a little bit about the ethical dimensions of your work? You know, like what you think about when you're designing for impact when you're thinking about you know what is user engagement slash what is manipulation or even to go as far as exploitation and how that plays into things. Oh,

00:27:40: Cameron: goodness, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's this term in the field of UX that any US practitioner, I think, is sensitive to or at least aware of. And that is called DRUX. And it's just these gross things that people do to try to manipulate users to complete an action, either unknowingly by mistake or manipulate them into making them think twice about the decision that they're making. And they oh, maybe I don't want to be, you know, some loser. So I guess I will, you know, subscribe to your service for $5 a month, like you need to be very sensitive to that and really have the user's best interest in mind throughout our design process. So we need to be practising some ethical UAC throughout the whole deal, and again, that's going to come back to this concept of value. Are we really designing things that people are going to derive value from, or if the perception here is that I'm working at an organisation and I just want to get value from Yeah,

00:28:34: Joe: numbers must go up

00:28:35: Cameron: right? Right. We need to be helping them solve problems. We need to be helping them perform a task making their lives easier, reducing their cognitive load for whatever they're sort of doing, and having their best interest in mind should always be key, and I think it's really apparent when it's not. And I hope that folks are averse to designing in that way. I feel

00:28:57: Joe: like awareness at large, like outside of the tech industry, is spreading, particularly things like, you know, you mentioned being tripped in subscribing for things. I think like that. And the the newsletter subscription also ticked on the stuff, right? Like it has spread awareness of these patterns at large. I think dark patterns is a very familiar term to people when it comes to avoiding those. Are there things like I imagine there must be. But are there things like ethical standards that designers can refer to or like, pull up? If they want to check that, aside from their gut feeling that, like, you know, there's a checklist I can look at? Is there anything like that? You know

00:29:32: Cameron: what they're unlikely is they're unlikely. Our list. I don't have anything coming to the top of my head. I just kind of know it when I see it, and I've had, like, piece meal exposures to it, But I mean, I'm very vocal if if anything ever would arise as some sort of business requirement that if anything like that is pitched, I try to shut it down as soon as possible. So no, that's not best practise. We don't do it like that. That's awesome.

00:29:57: Joe: Cool. So we all kind of time here. So I want to lead us off in a place we like to end with lots of guests who have such interesting experiences, which is, you know, folks who are listening to this and they're thinking you're like, Oh, that sounds something I want to get into. Or, you know, I'm starting out as a UX designer and you know, this path sounds really interesting. What would be your top piece of advice for folks who are just getting into UX for how they might make their mark? How they might, you know, become part of this industry in a notable way.

00:30:25: Cameron: Don't wait for anyone else to do it for you. Just start doing it. Just dive in. I mean, we have a tonne of resources out there from, you know, Nielsen Norman Group Interaction Design Foundation. There are plenty of I mean, goodness, YouTube. There's tonnes of resources to just kind of help you get started and learn about what this field is. In General Sigma, you can get a trial version for free. You can start looking up examples of just design. Often user interface Design is an easy entry point into the field of Dula. But you know, of course, UX research is the other side of the coin there are of resources online. LinkedIn has been invaluable to me. I come back to LinkedIn daily because I derive value from that every day. And the relationships that I've made through LinkedIn have honestly been amazing. I would be where I am today, professionally, without those relationships that I've made specifically through LinkedIn. And I'm working with my colleagues and friends Now that I've we met on LinkedIn seven or eight years ago, you know, it's one of those things. It's a fantastic platform to connect with other like minded individuals and just start engaging with other people on that platform. I mean, there's a tonne of tonne of awesome and intelligent people there. It's

00:31:40: Joe: definitely also having like, a new moment in post Twitter the exodus. There's definitely like some new energy there that's actually quite exciting. Yeah, awesome. I think that's great advice Well, Cameron, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. Thank you for joining us today.

00:31:54: Cameron: Thank you so much. Joe. I really appreciate you. Thank you.

00:31:58: Joe: Be on the screen at Iona podcast to find out more about ion A and how we are the go to source for cutting edge solutions and Web development. Visit iona dot com and then make sure to search for ion in apple podcasts, Spotify and Google podcasts or anywhere else. Podcasts are found. Don't forget to click. Subscribe. So you don't miss any future episodes on behalf of the team here at Iona. Thanks for listening.